Poet, philosopher, and founder of Wonder Haiku Worlds.
I was active on various websites related to poetry & haiku. I wrote as Rudra & brahman~narayanan in Photo Haiku Gallery & as Rudra in midnightedition!
View all posts by Narayanan Raghunathan
Great Thanks Angelika! I am honoured you like the Haiku. I must mention in this context that the version of the Haiku i
sumbmitted was
winter funeral ~
a stray dog too
joins the crowd
Dylan felt the “too” was superfluos. I felt it was necessary. I gave him my argumnents in favour of including the “too”! But Dylan has preferred his version! I feel my haiku looks a little truncated !
I included the “too” for various reasons ~
First and foremost, the rhythm and cadence when read aloud. i feel this version sounds better than the truncated version!
Secondly, there is a secondary kireji [ an eloquent pause ] manifesting after “too” in this version, which adds to the poetic ambience in my opinion [ contd~]
narayanan,
i’m in agreement with you.
too often one’s words are lost upon others.
why??? because they don’t understand.
those hearing my personal reading(baritone voice) tend to feel every word, thereby perceiving all the innuendoes.
in “masterpieces” i’ve seen errors, but did i take out my chisel. no.
i feel, “like it or dislike it, but leave it alone”.
“charm of brevity”, rita, i ponder. it is said of brevity, to be concise, terseness, or simply being brief.
TOO many think this applies to the haiku. yes, there is a shortness of words, however i feel the words many chose are TOO brief in being descriptive to truly portray the haiku moment
narayanan’s “too” adds magic(charm). without too, one has created something sterile; lacking depth
Now to the deeper meta-physic of the “vast moment” and its seamless implications. It is not a mere neo-realistic human observation of an [ignorant] dog joining the human crowd obtruding their solemn mood. It is a metaphysical dog perceiving a unique canine-cosmos ~ a divine being who intrinsically knows as a birthright more about human death than human beings themselves. [ Contd~] ~ AH! “too” !
Narayanan,
_One reader, one opinion; just think of the mathematical progression here. However, none of those -many opinions- discredit… your
“stiring” haiku.
_That which is written, is complemented by the discussion it creates.
_M
a dog howls ~
scent of death pervades
the midnight stillness
Dog’s special howl is a traditional premonition of Death! This is to affirm that Dogs see Yama[The Lord Of Death] Please refer ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yama_%28Hinduism%29 [ Contd ~ ] Thank you friends . Special thanks to Bob. I will respond in detail soon
Fascinating discussion. In general, I believe an author’s strong preferences should be respected, by author, editor, & readers. Here, unfortunately, though the author’s explanations are interesting on several levels, the “too” does not convey such complexities & does feel clumsy & redundant. I much prefer the graceful & moving published version (sans “too”).
Infinite Gratitude Bob [Omnipresent on Tinywords] for your deep understanding.It is a case of “déjà vu”. I expected that you would support my necessarily rigid stance and when it really happened i was honoured and i felt relieved.
understand the haiku’s essence and with a clean palate, savor Narayanan Raghunathan’s haiku. “too”, albeit short is a highly complex word, provides clarity. as narayanan points out, there’s more than meets the eye; that many overlook
and those professing enlightenment.
–
wintry night in silence the red dog, the black dog too i see
Dear b. m. richardson,
In my comment, I mentioned that the word (too) is implied in the poem, so it is redundant. This is charm of brevity.Isn’t it?
Dear Narayanan,
in my society,too,people believe that dogs do see bad spirits.
To T.Dylan,
I prefer to publish the haiku as it is without any changes and let us write our feedback which can lead to discussions of which we all learn.
Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, the trinity in Hindu Puraanas[ ageless ancient lore] unite to become the Avatar of Dattaatreya. Four country dogs follow him and are supposed to be the personification of the four Vedas[ Word Seen] Rig, Yajur, Saama,& Atharva.
Let’s hope the author’s discomfort about having allowed his work to be published in a “truncated” form (oh, how painful!) has been alleviated by the enlightening & rewarding discussion it has inspired, & by the appreciation & attention it has received in both forms.
rita, “in my comment” is redundant to “i mentioned”. implication results from (effect there has to be a cause). i see no indication more than the words(a stray dog joins the crowd) plainly say. ah, the magic of “too”.
now, i can reflect on “charm”: an utterance of words perchance; to fascinate even.
i’d say no.
if i were* at a loss for words would be “charm brevity”
There is something else too that occurs to me. This observation of the dog joining the human (funeral) crowd must have happened many times although perhaps not noted explictly ! The “too” brings an expectancy fullfillment of a similar event! Thank you Ed, Rita, Vasile, Alan and other friends who have commented here!
Rita and Narayanan — tinywords is a magazine, not a workshop. That means the editors select what they believe are the best haiku and sometimes suggest changes to them. Also, it is my hope that the response feature will be used for haiku, not argument, with people posting their own haiku in reply, creating a sort of online renga, not a disputation. Usually this is the case. Today, not so much.
Terrific idea, responding mainly in haiku, creating renga. (I didn’t realize that’s what was wanted.) Let’s try it! I’ll do my best, but there will probably be a time lag between the inspirating haiku & my response, if any.
I think a wonderful and interesting discussion has arisen out of the change suggested. There are a couple of fine response haiku too ~ notably Vasile’s and bmr’s. There wasn’t so much a disputation as a spontaneous elucidation of a finer aspect of haiku, which readers of magazine don’t usually get. I think tinywords got more than it bargained for.
chilling light
through bare branches
a dove’s coo
–
“we’re all students, and no one really knows how to write a haiku; we keep trying anyway”. -jr
with comments, responses, and seminars the haiku grows; not merely being imitated.
discussions, one reason the haiku thrives; continually being discovered and rediscovered. sans debates, i fear singlemindedness; we know where this leads.
saw this three years ago. the poem was
subsequently published in the senryu
section of simply haiku. it seems a fitting
companion piece to your fine haiku…
funeral procession…
the last car picks up
a hitchhiker
“too” or not, your poem is a resounding
success. look at all the other “strays”
who’ve joined the mourners!
Dear friends
Dylan is irritated by this “too” related discussion. He has clarified this to me. Since this is his site and so it is his prerogative ~ I request you to shift the venue of this discussion to
slow moving hearse—
skidding into headstones,
the driven snow
I like your poem without the “too.” With the “too,” the “two” would seem to mean “in addition to,” but you have not indicated or implied any antecedent or referent. And therefore, IMHO, the “two” would provide fuzziness not complexity.
Narayanan, Shyam, Bobby, and others — let me apologize for my irritation earlier. What initially seemed to me a case of an author carping at his editor now seems to have blossomed into a very interesting, wide-ranging discussion. My first impression was wrong! I am happy to see renga as well as discussion on this site. Carry on, either here or at wonderhaikuworlds.com. You will anyway, I know. ;)
dft, the magnitude of your responsibilities, while maintaining tinywords, must be overwhelming; sifting through the legitimate and illegitimate. an apology is unwarranted. over the years, you’ve been a beacon of light through it all.
–
winter blues-
grey clouds
give way to a blue sky
–
dft, keep up the brilliant work
–
after tomorrow, i may deny having written this. ;)
thankyou mr narayanan for this excellent haiku. bt was ‘winter’ an actual necessity to convey your abstract imagery? wouldnt it have been a good haiku even if it had just been ‘a funeral, a stray dog, joins the crowd’? iam not as gifted an haiku writer as you are but it looks to me as if you added winter just to have a ‘season word’ or ‘kigo’ in your haiku.
Hello Mr. Vineeth. Thank you for the response. It was “winter funeral” ~ so I wrote so. You are questioning my sincerity. Write to me personally ! I will answer you more elaborately. I could not link to your address.
You must be a malayaali!
Pet cemetery
A thousand tears and heartbreaks
Memories survive
We mourn our loss, we know they mourn their own. Why should a stray dog not be moved, too, and join this human community in grief?
The presence of a cat or dog, stray or otherwise, can provide a moment of great consolation with their inate sense of understanding and shared affection.
Thank you Lesley for your comments.
Mr. Vineeth please link to my address and i will answer you elaborately. It is perhaps true that many haiku writers in non-Japanese artifically introduce a “kigo”. You could have written a similar comment on many Haiku in “tinywords” itself. Why did you choose my Haiku for your attack? But I am very meticulous on this point! Please check the essays on my site.
an excellent haiku!
Great Thanks Angelika! I am honoured you like the Haiku. I must mention in this context that the version of the Haiku i
sumbmitted was
winter funeral ~
a stray dog too
joins the crowd
Dylan felt the “too” was superfluos. I felt it was necessary. I gave him my argumnents in favour of including the “too”! But Dylan has preferred his version! I feel my haiku looks a little truncated !
Hi Narayanan,
Nice to see you here!
Good poem with a clear and vivid imagery!
-kala
amazing haiku… well done!
A very human haiku.
vibrant
red peonies
white peonies
stirred by the breeze–
sobs
Very nice, Narayanan!
A moment that lingers,
and expands…
:-)
Lary
Poignant yet subtle, sad but oddly comforting — very nicely done.
Like a scene from a Sajit Ray’s movie.
Narayanan,
_Without the -too- depth is added… this version drew me in.
_M
I agree with Magyar – omitting the “too” allowed more wondering for me. For example, “Was it the deceased’s dog?” Hmmm.
winter funeral ~
a stray dog too
joins the crowd
I included the “too” for various reasons ~
First and foremost, the rhythm and cadence when read aloud. i feel this version sounds better than the truncated version!
Secondly, there is a secondary kireji [ an eloquent pause ] manifesting after “too” in this version, which adds to the poetic ambience in my opinion [ contd~]
mourning bands…
tears came
to dog’s eyes too
narayanan,
i’m in agreement with you.
too often one’s words are lost upon others.
why??? because they don’t understand.
those hearing my personal reading(baritone voice) tend to feel every word, thereby perceiving all the innuendoes.
in “masterpieces” i’ve seen errors, but did i take out my chisel. no.
i feel, “like it or dislike it, but leave it alone”.
Beautiful haiku, Narayanan. I like it without the word(too)which is implied in the poem. Isn’t this the charm of brevity.?!
“charm of brevity”, rita, i ponder. it is said of brevity, to be concise, terseness, or simply being brief.
TOO many think this applies to the haiku. yes, there is a shortness of words, however i feel the words many chose are TOO brief in being descriptive to truly portray the haiku moment
narayanan’s “too” adds magic(charm). without too, one has created something sterile; lacking depth
Now to the deeper meta-physic of the “vast moment” and its seamless implications. It is not a mere neo-realistic human observation of an [ignorant] dog joining the human crowd obtruding their solemn mood. It is a metaphysical dog perceiving a unique canine-cosmos ~ a divine being who intrinsically knows as a birthright more about human death than human beings themselves. [ Contd~] ~ AH! “too” !
Narayanan,
_One reader, one opinion; just think of the mathematical progression here. However, none of those -many opinions- discredit… your
“stiring” haiku.
_That which is written, is complemented by the discussion it creates.
_M
In india Dog is a mystical mythological being.
a dog howls ~
scent of death pervades
the midnight stillness
Dog’s special howl is a traditional premonition of Death! This is to affirm that Dogs see Yama[The Lord Of Death] Please refer ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yama_%28Hinduism%29 [ Contd ~ ] Thank you friends . Special thanks to Bob. I will respond in detail soon
magyar, what is being read is not the way it was originally written. open discussion is good; if the original work has been left intact.
–
dft, might you change the haiku to it’s original wording
Fascinating discussion. In general, I believe an author’s strong preferences should be respected, by author, editor, & readers. Here, unfortunately, though the author’s explanations are interesting on several levels, the “too” does not convey such complexities & does feel clumsy & redundant. I much prefer the graceful & moving published version (sans “too”).
Infinite Gratitude Bob [Omnipresent on Tinywords] for your deep understanding.It is a case of “déjà vu”. I expected that you would support my necessarily rigid stance and when it really happened i was honoured and i felt relieved.
shmashaanam ~
shvaano mahaa rishi:
apratyaksham dattena saha
[ Sanskrit ]
crematorium ~
dog the divine seer
with the invisible Datta
[Contd~]
the word “too” adds mystery for me.
makes me wonder who (human & spirit)
else has decided to mourn (or celebrate)
this passing.
spring equinox
stray dogs lap the remains
of a snowman
Swamigalu! you honour me far beyond my worth.
–
understand the haiku’s essence and with a clean palate, savor Narayanan Raghunathan’s haiku. “too”, albeit short is a highly complex word, provides clarity. as narayanan points out, there’s more than meets the eye; that many overlook
and those professing enlightenment.
–
wintry night in silence the red dog, the black dog too i see
Dear b. m. richardson,
In my comment, I mentioned that the word (too) is implied in the poem, so it is redundant. This is charm of brevity.Isn’t it?
Dear Narayanan,
in my society,too,people believe that dogs do see bad spirits.
To T.Dylan,
I prefer to publish the haiku as it is without any changes and let us write our feedback which can lead to discussions of which we all learn.
Best, Rita
This discussion is very rewarding: to have been privileged to read so much of Narayanan’s point of view.
Tinywords works as a spontaneous conduit, and in this case it has been particularly illuminating and rewarding.
My many thanks to Narayanan, and the guest commentators.
I love the haiku by the way! ;-)
Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, the trinity in Hindu Puraanas[ ageless ancient lore] unite to become the Avatar of Dattaatreya. Four country dogs follow him and are supposed to be the personification of the four Vedas[ Word Seen] Rig, Yajur, Saama,& Atharva.
http://www.shivashakti.com/datta.htm
http://www.hinduism.8k.com/dattatreya.html
http://www.avatara.org/dattatreya/index.html
[contd ~]
Let’s hope the author’s discomfort about having allowed his work to be published in a “truncated” form (oh, how painful!) has been alleviated by the enlightening & rewarding discussion it has inspired, & by the appreciation & attention it has received in both forms.
rita, “in my comment” is redundant to “i mentioned”. implication results from (effect there has to be a cause). i see no indication more than the words(a stray dog joins the crowd) plainly say. ah, the magic of “too”.
now, i can reflect on “charm”: an utterance of words perchance; to fascinate even.
i’d say no.
if i were* at a loss for words would be “charm brevity”
*false and improbable
DattAterya ~ Just check
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dattatreya
There is something else too that occurs to me. This observation of the dog joining the human (funeral) crowd must have happened many times although perhaps not noted explictly ! The “too” brings an expectancy fullfillment of a similar event! Thank you Ed, Rita, Vasile, Alan and other friends who have commented here!
Rita and Narayanan — tinywords is a magazine, not a workshop. That means the editors select what they believe are the best haiku and sometimes suggest changes to them. Also, it is my hope that the response feature will be used for haiku, not argument, with people posting their own haiku in reply, creating a sort of online renga, not a disputation. Usually this is the case. Today, not so much.
Thank you Dylan ~
Dear Vasile
Thank you for this Haiku ~
I think it may be slightly altered thus in my opinion ~
mourning band …
tears came to
the dog’s eyes too
My response ~
winter twilight ~
a stray silent dog
weeps solitarily
Terrific idea, responding mainly in haiku, creating renga. (I didn’t realize that’s what was wanted.) Let’s try it! I’ll do my best, but there will probably be a time lag between the inspirating haiku & my response, if any.
Thanks!
sooooo much nicer without the 2…
two silences
under one umbrella…
tiny coffin
I think a wonderful and interesting discussion has arisen out of the change suggested. There are a couple of fine response haiku too ~ notably Vasile’s and bmr’s. There wasn’t so much a disputation as a spontaneous elucidation of a finer aspect of haiku, which readers of magazine don’t usually get. I think tinywords got more than it bargained for.
chilling light
through bare branches
a dove’s coo
–
“we’re all students, and no one really knows how to write a haiku; we keep trying anyway”. -jr
with comments, responses, and seminars the haiku grows; not merely being imitated.
discussions, one reason the haiku thrives; continually being discovered and rediscovered. sans debates, i fear singlemindedness; we know where this leads.
one cricket
deepening the silence
between stars
Very powerful haiku. I prefer it with “too”. For me, it adds a lot and it creates more possibilities (does a stray dog usually join a crowd?).
narayanan,
saw this three years ago. the poem was
subsequently published in the senryu
section of simply haiku. it seems a fitting
companion piece to your fine haiku…
funeral procession…
the last car picks up
a hitchhiker
“too” or not, your poem is a resounding
success. look at all the other “strays”
who’ve joined the mourners!
ed
or?:….
funeral procession…
the last car picks up
a hitchhiker too
ahhhh, the power, mystique, and (charm) of “too”; causing one to conceive and perceive the many worlds in a ku…
–
ed, thanks for sharing.
–
“funeral procession” caused me to ponder if the last car was part of the procession, too.
–
stray yellow dog
stranded on the roadside–
a hitch-hiker, too
Dear friends
Dylan is irritated by this “too” related discussion. He has clarified this to me. Since this is his site and so it is his prerogative ~ I request you to shift the venue of this discussion to
http://www.wonderhaikuworlds.com/
Check this article ~ http://www.wonderhaikuworlds.com/viewdetail.php?post=1122&type=11
Thank you ~
Narayanan Raghunathan
bob,
the last car TOO was part of the procession.
i found the incident both strange and
compelling.
monk’s hut
the mountain it sits upon too
is crumbling
ed
Too much!
I enjoyed the haiku!
ed, even stranger and more compelling, too, if it had been the first car…
–
crackers crumbling
from the child’s hand
the swans feast
winter gravestone
steam rises from the stray dog’s pee
bob,
had it been the hearse, i may have marked
it off as hallucination. that would’ve been
too compelling!
ed
a fresh layer of moss
on mother’s gravestone…
summer begins
milkweed
growing over the older
tombstones
mother’s grave…
the withered roses
from her garden
as summer ends–
remembering
rolling stones
–
ed, these are strange times. weren’t we at least briefed(j/k) by the likes of the outer limits, the twilight zone, and the x-files.
and, for some even stranger reason, jeffrey’s “noon rush” (2003/04/08) comes to mind too.
–
gone…
mother’s walk
through the garden
lilac aroma
slow moving hearse—
skidding into headstones,
the driven snow
I like your poem without the “too.” With the “too,” the “two” would seem to mean “in addition to,” but you have not indicated or implied any antecedent or referent. And therefore, IMHO, the “two” would provide fuzziness not complexity.
Narayanan, Shyam, Bobby, and others — let me apologize for my irritation earlier. What initially seemed to me a case of an author carping at his editor now seems to have blossomed into a very interesting, wide-ranging discussion. My first impression was wrong! I am happy to see renga as well as discussion on this site. Carry on, either here or at wonderhaikuworlds.com. You will anyway, I know. ;)
Dear friends Welcome to
http://www.wonderhaikuworlds.com/
Check this article ~
“Ah! Too Be or Not Too Be”
http://www.wonderhaikuworlds.com/viewdetail.php?post=1122&type=11
Thank you ~
Narayanan Raghunathan
Thank you Dylan for posting my comments you had withheld!
N
done.
dft, the magnitude of your responsibilities, while maintaining tinywords, must be overwhelming; sifting through the legitimate and illegitimate. an apology is unwarranted. over the years, you’ve been a beacon of light through it all.
–
winter blues-
grey clouds
give way to a blue sky
–
dft, keep up the brilliant work
–
after tomorrow, i may deny having written this. ;)
thankyou mr narayanan for this excellent haiku. bt was ‘winter’ an actual necessity to convey your abstract imagery? wouldnt it have been a good haiku even if it had just been ‘a funeral, a stray dog, joins the crowd’? iam not as gifted an haiku writer as you are but it looks to me as if you added winter just to have a ‘season word’ or ‘kigo’ in your haiku.
Hello Mr. Vineeth. Thank you for the response. It was “winter funeral” ~ so I wrote so. You are questioning my sincerity. Write to me personally ! I will answer you more elaborately. I could not link to your address.
You must be a malayaali!
Pet cemetery
A thousand tears and heartbreaks
Memories survive
We mourn our loss, we know they mourn their own. Why should a stray dog not be moved, too, and join this human community in grief?
The presence of a cat or dog, stray or otherwise, can provide a moment of great consolation with their inate sense of understanding and shared affection.
Thank you Lesley for your comments.
Mr. Vineeth please link to my address and i will answer you elaborately. It is perhaps true that many haiku writers in non-Japanese artifically introduce a “kigo”. You could have written a similar comment on many Haiku in “tinywords” itself. Why did you choose my Haiku for your attack? But I am very meticulous on this point! Please check the essays on my site.