Your name is esteemed in haiku circles while I am a relative novice and student seeking to learn and understand, and I know there are no “rules” per se, but may I please ask (1) should a haiku be a “tribute” to someone, i.e., an intellectualization?, and (2) shouldn’t haiku be “in the moment” rather than looking back 44 years? Sincerely and with thanks, Mike
mike farley, interesting point. yet, there is division; those who observe rules, and those who don’t. i’m of the latter group. mike, be the adventurer. it will give you clarity. i’ve read, “one must know the rules before you can effectively break the rules”; conceivable.
this being said on writing a haiku…
–
dawn’s reflection
cross the mirrored lake–
lingering mist
the interesting thing about this sketch is that without the dedication beneath the author’s name it would be very difficult to
tell that this was anything other than an anonymous man from georgia speaking to someone in a grassy field. in the “moment” the sketch provides no clue as to king’s speech. i think this fact renders the piece
ineffictive in the author’s actual intent.
Actually, WN, all good poetry should be open-ended enough to provide many layers to its readers. This piece does just that, with or without the note regarding Dr. King. In addition, anyone with any modicum of a western education would have caught the “dream” reference to King’s famous “I Have A Dream” speech.
Many in the Western world will know who, while others can google, which is a good result in itself if they do! ;-)
It’s always imperative to read English-language translation versions of contemporary Japanese haiku writers’ work. They are multilayered in allusion, which many Western haiku writers forget.
This is a fine example of allusion to Dr King (and a nod to Basho & his haiku)! ;-)
alan, sad, many in the world won’t know who, nor will they google; but, you did say “if they do”.
even in reading the english translation of contemporary writers’ works, this point will be missed. why! many writers and readers haven’t forgotten, many have never been broadminded; nor will ever be, while languishing in singlemindedness.
after this, i perused ed’s “lunar eclipse”, again…
It still seems like Peggy’s “summer grasses”, along with Toby’s two more to complete his tryptch threesome, all seem to be an excercise in honoring Dr. King’s speech and bravery in 3 lines or less, i.e., to make the author’s point, which shouldn’t be the point of haiku, should it? To me, they all three seem contrived to make their points and lack any sense that they are anyone’s real experience.
Hi Peggy,
I love how the grasses continue to speak…
across the years, and through countless dreams.
It’s one of my favorites by Basho, and I felt a shiver
of delight when you connected it to Martin Luther King.
:)
Lary
to return to nelson’s point, without a qualifier, how would one really know that
“crows crossing an alabama bridge” had anything to do with something other than crows crossing a bridge. there’s no contrivance until the tribute to dr. king is mentioned. keep in mind the origins of haiku.sake shop hokku skewered and honored
many people. mike, what is the point of haiku?
there are life incidents familiar to but a few. those outside this familiarity oftentimes take the singleminded approach. one being knowledgable allows for a unique visualization. if there’s confusion, research the possibility of ambiguous meanings.
the most unrealistic occurrence, i can assure you, has happened to someone, somewhere.
i would use sweltering asphalt ‘stead of summer grasses
Toby – Again, I’m certainly willing to learn, but I’ve always understood haiku as best being an honest and intuitive response to nature and the nature of things rather than an intellectual statement designed with a poet’s purpose to honor someone or some historic event.
mike, we are what we’re taught; better said, “we are what we learn”.
i’m of the frame of mind, it’s good to be taught things, it’s great to learn things; but why stop there. it’s magnificent to go beyond the way things were done previously; striving to excel. it’s call progress.
i’m appalled by, “if i understood correctly, a haiku is suppose to be…”
–
Bob, are you saying that, for you, a haiku can be anything?, and that there are no defining characteristics at all for this wonderful form of poetry? I ask you the same question that Toby asked me and which I tried to honestly answer – what is the point of haiku for you? Just what is it in your view, and is this one of yours a representative sample?
Mike, as I understand it there is a long tradition of allusion and literary/historical homage in haiku. Peggy’s haiku echoes this one by Basho:
summer grasses
all that remains
of warriors’ dreams
However, you are right that haiku should evoke an immediate experience. The historical dimension should be an added layer, not the primary point–else it becomes a mere epigram.
mike, i have only 400 characters per comment. part of your comment i can readily answer. others require deeper thoughts
morning sky
so blue–
not really
it is a haiku for me. if you’re asking is it representative of what all haiku(s), to me, should be; my answer is NO. per chance you’ve read many works of the masters, they strayed from the stringent rules some would have you follow today.
Warm thanks for the careful attention. I was ill on the 28th and am still convalescing. While there are numerous examples of fictional haiku by haiku masters, mine usually come from deeply felt experience, immediate or remembered. Tomorrow I will add a note about how this one came to be.
mike, your “what is the point of haiku… in your view”. in your words, i tried to find a clarifier. easier to answer, what does the traditional haiku mean to me. today’s haiku has a new image, though clinging to aspects of the traditional. evoking sight, smell, and/or sound in the natural world, dreams included. in some, a dual meaning, in others merely a turning point. consisting of a line(s).
The haiku dates to August 28th, 2003, when the “I Have a Dream” speech captured attention around the world.Hearing it repeatedly,in the context of current events, and reflecting on the 40 years since the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom, affected me deeply.Ornamental grasses were looking bad as summer ended.The ongoing hope of Dr. King’s message seemed vital contrast to “warriors’ dreams.
Hi Peggy. Nice to meet you if only in cyber-space. I own a copy of your book “To Hear the Rain” and love it.
I guess my feeling about ‘social commentary ku’ reflects a matter of taste on my part. I FAR prefer your real and magical ‘in-the-moment’ pieces such as …
peggy,
the “old friends” poem at mainichi is fantastic. wanted to let you know but knew of no other way. so, thanks to dylan for providing this convienient way to communicate.
toby
Traditional Haiku is wonderful and very powerful – and sometimes seems like fairy floss – so quickly springing to mind, without true substance, in the traditional sense.
Other times, in a moment, a Haiku comes which may not meet the criteria of “traditional” but which still conveys the emotion of the moment.
You’ve honored Martin, Basho and everyone with a dream!
Well done Peggy.
beautiful ku!
Your name is esteemed in haiku circles while I am a relative novice and student seeking to learn and understand, and I know there are no “rules” per se, but may I please ask (1) should a haiku be a “tribute” to someone, i.e., an intellectualization?, and (2) shouldn’t haiku be “in the moment” rather than looking back 44 years? Sincerely and with thanks, Mike
The incomparable Peggy Lyles. Always a pleasure to see one of your haiku spread its wings and fly off into the bright blue.
A stirring tale.
Listening to
the tale of a true man…
summer grasses
Mr. Mike Farley, I think D. F. Tweney can also answer your questions, if Ms. Lyles is not available to answer.
mike farley, interesting point. yet, there is division; those who observe rules, and those who don’t. i’m of the latter group. mike, be the adventurer. it will give you clarity. i’ve read, “one must know the rules before you can effectively break the rules”; conceivable.
this being said on writing a haiku…
–
dawn’s reflection
cross the mirrored lake–
lingering mist
Beautifully presented on so many levels, Peggy.
the interesting thing about this sketch is that without the dedication beneath the author’s name it would be very difficult to
tell that this was anything other than an anonymous man from georgia speaking to someone in a grassy field. in the “moment” the sketch provides no clue as to king’s speech. i think this fact renders the piece
ineffictive in the author’s actual intent.
Actually, WN, all good poetry should be open-ended enough to provide many layers to its readers. This piece does just that, with or without the note regarding Dr. King. In addition, anyone with any modicum of a western education would have caught the “dream” reference to King’s famous “I Have A Dream” speech.
we all have a dream
martin luther king’s last dream
still awakes others
way to go Peggy !!
Many in the Western world will know who, while others can google, which is a good result in itself if they do! ;-)
It’s always imperative to read English-language translation versions of contemporary Japanese haiku writers’ work. They are multilayered in allusion, which many Western haiku writers forget.
This is a fine example of allusion to Dr King (and a nod to Basho & his haiku)! ;-)
alan, sad, many in the world won’t know who, nor will they google; but, you did say “if they do”.
even in reading the english translation of contemporary writers’ works, this point will be missed. why! many writers and readers haven’t forgotten, many have never been broadminded; nor will ever be, while languishing in singlemindedness.
after this, i perused ed’s “lunar eclipse”, again…
head winds…
the movement of crows
across an alabama bridge
spring sunset
the emptiness
of a memphis balcony
now we have a tryptch of dr. kings brilliant bravery.
Thanks for comments b.m., and I like very much Toby’s haiku, very moving, very evocative.
It still seems like Peggy’s “summer grasses”, along with Toby’s two more to complete his tryptch threesome, all seem to be an excercise in honoring Dr. King’s speech and bravery in 3 lines or less, i.e., to make the author’s point, which shouldn’t be the point of haiku, should it? To me, they all three seem contrived to make their points and lack any sense that they are anyone’s real experience.
Hi Peggy,
I love how the grasses continue to speak…
across the years, and through countless dreams.
It’s one of my favorites by Basho, and I felt a shiver
of delight when you connected it to Martin Luther King.
:)
Lary
The linking allusion between “summer grasses” and Dr King is not only bigger than those two allusions, but a stroke of genius.
It far expands “merely” honouring Dr King & his “Dream”, though that is macro enough, and yet touches us in a micro way, to be part of haiku poetry.
I prefer tingles down my spine with poetry; this haiku does; as does the subject Dr King does.
to return to nelson’s point, without a qualifier, how would one really know that
“crows crossing an alabama bridge” had anything to do with something other than crows crossing a bridge. there’s no contrivance until the tribute to dr. king is mentioned. keep in mind the origins of haiku.sake shop hokku skewered and honored
many people. mike, what is the point of haiku?
there are life incidents familiar to but a few. those outside this familiarity oftentimes take the singleminded approach. one being knowledgable allows for a unique visualization. if there’s confusion, research the possibility of ambiguous meanings.
the most unrealistic occurrence, i can assure you, has happened to someone, somewhere.
i would use sweltering asphalt ‘stead of summer grasses
Peggy,
A great haiku that has sparked an interesting discussion.
Toby, Memphis is my hometown. I love both of your haiku, even if they are contrived. Works for me.
Collin
Toby – Again, I’m certainly willing to learn, but I’ve always understood haiku as best being an honest and intuitive response to nature and the nature of things rather than an intellectual statement designed with a poet’s purpose to honor someone or some historic event.
mike, we are what we’re taught; better said, “we are what we learn”.
i’m of the frame of mind, it’s good to be taught things, it’s great to learn things; but why stop there. it’s magnificent to go beyond the way things were done previously; striving to excel. it’s call progress.
i’m appalled by, “if i understood correctly, a haiku is suppose to be…”
–
morning sky
so blue–
not really
Bob, are you saying that, for you, a haiku can be anything?, and that there are no defining characteristics at all for this wonderful form of poetry? I ask you the same question that Toby asked me and which I tried to honestly answer – what is the point of haiku for you? Just what is it in your view, and is this one of yours a representative sample?
morning sky
so blue–
not really
for mike farley…
from dawn to dusk
the woodpecker’s rhythm…
labor day
have a good one!
toby
Thank you Toby! Now THAT’S a haiku!
labor day
a stack of breakfast dishes
in the sink
have a good one yourself!
Mike
Mike, as I understand it there is a long tradition of allusion and literary/historical homage in haiku. Peggy’s haiku echoes this one by Basho:
summer grasses
all that remains
of warriors’ dreams
However, you are right that haiku should evoke an immediate experience. The historical dimension should be an added layer, not the primary point–else it becomes a mere epigram.
mike,
glad you liked the poem. here’s another…
labor day dawn…
the wake of a beaver
washes ashore
a beaver’s dam reaches
the opposite bank…
the longest day
have really enjoyed exchanging ideas on this topic.
toby
dusk…
mike, i have only 400 characters per comment. part of your comment i can readily answer. others require deeper thoughts
morning sky
so blue–
not really
it is a haiku for me. if you’re asking is it representative of what all haiku(s), to me, should be; my answer is NO. per chance you’ve read many works of the masters, they strayed from the stringent rules some would have you follow today.
Warm thanks for the careful attention. I was ill on the 28th and am still convalescing. While there are numerous examples of fictional haiku by haiku masters, mine usually come from deeply felt experience, immediate or remembered. Tomorrow I will add a note about how this one came to be.
mike, your “what is the point of haiku… in your view”. in your words, i tried to find a clarifier. easier to answer, what does the traditional haiku mean to me. today’s haiku has a new image, though clinging to aspects of the traditional. evoking sight, smell, and/or sound in the natural world, dreams included. in some, a dual meaning, in others merely a turning point. consisting of a line(s).
The haiku dates to August 28th, 2003, when the “I Have a Dream” speech captured attention around the world.Hearing it repeatedly,in the context of current events, and reflecting on the 40 years since the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom, affected me deeply.Ornamental grasses were looking bad as summer ended.The ongoing hope of Dr. King’s message seemed vital contrast to “warriors’ dreams.
Hi Peggy. Nice to meet you if only in cyber-space. I own a copy of your book “To Hear the Rain” and love it.
I guess my feeling about ‘social commentary ku’ reflects a matter of taste on my part. I FAR prefer your real and magical ‘in-the-moment’ pieces such as …
Indian summer
a turtle on a turtle
on a rock
and …
spring sunbeam
the baby’s toes
spread apart
Best, … Mike
peggy,
the “old friends” poem at mainichi is fantastic. wanted to let you know but knew of no other way. so, thanks to dylan for providing this convienient way to communicate.
toby
Fairy floss Haiku
Pink mist drifts from sweet lips
Sugar grain crunch, absent.
Traditional Haiku is wonderful and very powerful – and sometimes seems like fairy floss – so quickly springing to mind, without true substance, in the traditional sense.
Other times, in a moment, a Haiku comes which may not meet the criteria of “traditional” but which still conveys the emotion of the moment.
dream of a summer night:
to listen to the grasses
growing up